Sticking to the script

Douglas Crockford: “Java was a colossal failure…JavaScript is succeeding because it works.”


Tom Wießeckel speaks to JavaScript god Douglas Crockford on Google Dart and why your mom doesn’t care what JavaScript is.

For Java developers, JavaScript used to be a much-maligned
territory. They‘ve just never got on with each other, despite
similarnames. But as the years have worn on, the shunned language
is starting to stand up for itself.

Our colleague from German-language PHP Magazin, Tom Wießeckel,
spoke to JavaScript god Douglas Crockford recently and we thought
it was well worth hearing the guru’s views on JavaScript, jQuery
and CoffeeScript.

Tom Wießeckel: I’m here with Douglas Crockford at JavaScript
Days 2012 in Cologne. Mr. Crockford, please introduce

Douglas Crockford: I’m Douglas Crockford from Yahoo!

Wießeckel: You’re well known as a JavaScript super hero and you
just held your keynote at the JavaScript Days. Can you summarize

Crockford: JavaScript is becoming an important language, but it’s a
misunderstood language. So in order to use it well it’s necessary
to have specific information and I am trying to help provide that
to people.

Wießeckel: So why is that misunderstood?

Crockford: A lot of it is because of its strange history. You know,
the fact that it is called JavaScript. It has nothing to do with
Java. It is almost like it was intentional that the name was
created to confuse people.

Wießeckel: You said something about the good parts and the bad
parts. Which one is the worst part?

Crockford: The worst part is JavaScript’s reliance and global
variables. The security problems that we see in the browser are
rooted in that mistake.

Wießeckel: After your keynote there was a question about
CoffeeScript. Can you repeat?

Crockford: CoffeeScript is a new language which compiles into
JavaScript. It uses JavaScript as an execution language.
CoffeeScript is beautiful and elegant and minimal – it’s a lovely
little language. I wish JavaScript worked a lot more like
CoffeeScript. I don’t recommend using CoffeeScript in production
because it’s still experimental and you don’t want to be doing
experiments in production. But for your own experiments or for
hobby projects it’s a good choice.

Wießeckel: So the advantage of CoffeeScript is in the

Crockford: That is the only advantage. The semantics of
CoffeeScript are exactly the same as in JavaScript. There is
nothing you can do in CoffeeScript that you can’t do in JavaScript.
It’s just that for many things the notations is more

Wießeckel: What about jQuery? It’s used by a lot of developers
because it’s easy to understand. What is your opinion about

Crockford: jQuery is great. jQuery is a library that runs on top of
the Document Object Model which is the API that the browser
provides to JavaScript. The Document Object Model is terrible. It
is one of the worst APIs I ever imagined. JavaScript is such a
powerful language that a relatively small library can turn the DOM
into something that’s useful. jQuery does that. YUI from Yahoo! I
think doesn’t even do a better job by doing the same thing. My
advice to anybody is: use one of these libraries. Don’t ever try to
talk to the Document Object Model yourself because it’s just pain
and misery. But using a good library it becomes something that is
pleasant and productive.

Wießeckel: And you try to bring JavaScript to the server side.
Is this the right approach?

Crockford: Yes, absolutely. There are lots of benefits that come
from it. One is that JavaScript is actually a good language once
you understand it. And so having JavaScript available on the server
means you only have to be fluent in one language. That’s a nice
simplification. But there is also the benefit that you can design
your code so that it can run on either end of the network. And that
can give you a lot of flexibility in dealing with new platforms and
old platforms.

Wießeckel: There are some different engines, V8 and
JägerMonkey. What is your favourite?

Crockford: It doesn’t matter. JavaScript is a surprisingly portable
language. There is not much difference between any the JavaScript
engines. So they’re all good. Microsoft surprisingly is very good
as well. Any of them work and they all work about the same and
they’re all great. That is one of the nice things about

Wießeckel: You mentioned Microsoft. There are some efforts from
Microsoft regarding Windows 8 bringing web developers to the
desktop. Is this a good approach?

Crockford: Probably (laughs).

Wießeckel: OK. But there are some restrictions like that you
can’t use the built-in camera on the iPad. Are these the right

Crockford: Yes, so part of the problem we have is that we have
never had a proper security model in any of the platforms that we
use. And as the platforms get more intimate with people that
becomes a bigger and bigger problem. So it’s not just being able to
clear out your file directory now. It can now spy on you. You can
recall your conversations, you can show your picture and transmit
it to anybody on the web without you knowing about it. That’s
something to worry about. JavaScript as practiced in the browser
comes close you to providing a secure environment for applications
and any other application delivery system.

It’s still not right, but it’s better than everything else. That
seems to be a better place to start than any of the other things.
Something that you see in other platforms is a “blame the victim”
security model. We’ll ask the user a question that the user cannot
possibly understand or answer correctly. And then when things go
wrong it’s the user’s fault for having agreed to this. That’s not a
security model, that’s just…stupid! The browser doesn’t do that.
Now the price of that is that the browser is limited in some ways
and we need to get smarter about how we reduce those limitations.
But it seems to be the right way to start.

Wießeckel: There are some new competitors like Google Dart.

Crockford: I don’t know. You have to ask someone from Google. It
doesn’t make any sense to me. There are lots of problems with
JavaScript and JavaScript should not be the last programming
language. I would like to encourage lots of experimentation in new
languages. Programming languages are the most important tool
available to programmers. We still haven’t gotten it right and
clearly JavaScript didn’t get it right.

So we need to keep doing those experiments, we need to keep
practicing. It takes us about 20 years to make an advance in
programming languages, so we need to get going faster than that. So
I’m very happy to see the experiment. The thing that is problematic
with Google is they seem to already claiming victory and they
haven’t finished the design yet. Dart doesn’t make sense to me, I
don’t know what Google is trying to do there. Dart is worth the
experiment and Google should be applauded. It may be a plot to
replace JavaScript but it seems unlikely.

Wießeckel: A few years ago JavaScript was considered as

Crockford: Still considered that.

Wießeckel: …by the consumer side.

Crockford: Not by consumers. Consumers have no knowledge of the
programming systems and the devices. Your mom doesn’t know what
JavaScript is or care.

Wießeckel: Well, that’s right. The papers wrote that JavaScript
is bad and you have to deactivate it to disable it. What happened
in the last few years that JavaScript is now the big

Crockford: It was Ajax. In 2001, Gartner predicted that the web was
about to die the same way that WAIS and Gopher had died. It was
going to be replaced by the Ex-Internet and a lot of people
believed them, including Microsoft. So Microsoft expanded the IE
team and started working on the next internet, whatever this was
going to be.

So they were really surprised in 2005 when Jesse James Garrett
published the paper about Ajax. Suddenly Microsoft was blindsided
by the web – the second time. And it has taken off since then.
Probably it’s because of the security things that the browser got
right. There is no scary dialog that faces the user when they get a
web application. Nothing saying “do you trust these guys who you
don’t know, who they are or will you get them these capabilities
that you don’t know what they are?”

The web doesn’t do that, it just works. And that made it much
easier to deliver applications than any other platform can do. I
think that’s what caused it to take off. The other thing was that
everything else failed. There were lots of attempts to try to
capture the web or to replace the web. Adobe has made several
attempts at that, as has Microsoft. Google is trying to do it now.
And so far all those have failed. Java was supposed to rule the
web. Java was a colossal failure. Java then tried to take over in
consumer electronics and other places and it hasn’t worked very
well either. In the phone platform, they have tried literally
everything. They have tried proprietary things, they have tried to
do open things, they have done the Java and it all failed.

And so now they’re doing the last thing that worked which is the
web, JavaScript. They are trying that on the phone and that looks
like it’s going to work. That’s not what anybody wanted or
predicted, but that’s sort of the way it’s turning out. JavaScript
is succeeding because it works. And getting stuff that just works
turns out to be surprisingly hard and uncommon.

Wießeckel: So the future from mobile is the web?

Crockford: Seems so. It’s not settled out yet, there is
competition. The app stores are trying to capture the web, so there
is a point of monopoly that all applications have to go through.
Which is sort of counter to the web philosophy which is “everybody
has an equal standing”.

Will that form win? Ultimately I think the open form wins just
because people benefit from the freedom of having an application
delivery system that can deliver applications from everybody. But
there are forces who were trying to close it, including the DRM
forces, so we will see how it plays out and will hope that it stays

Wießeckel: So Mozilla’s Boot To Gecko project [since renamed
FirefoxOS] is the right attempt towards the mobile world/universe?
Is this the next big thing?

Crockford: The thing that seems to be winning in the mobile space
is WebKit. I don’t know why but it seems to be the thing that has
been most adopted. Mozilla has done some very good stuff, WebKit
has done some very good stuff. I‘m hoping that stays a competitive
environment. I think it’s better that there not be one winner. So I
hope that Mozilla can stay strong.

Wießeckel: So is there a chance that WebKit is the next EE6? Or
EE5? Because everyone writes now developing for WebKit.

Crockford: One of the dilemmas of the Web is that it doesn’t come
from a single company: it doesn’t come from Adobe, it doesn’t come
from Microsoft, it doesn’t come from Sun or Oracle. Developers have
to work with all the different variations of the platform, and the
number of those seems to be growing rather than shrinking.

That is a hardship on developers, to the extent to that the W3C
standards are inadequate. Seriously inadequate. That makes life
more difficult for the developers. But I don’t want to go the other
way and say “OK there’s just going to be one platform from now on”
because having the diversity of platforms I think has been a
healthy thing and it would be bad to lose that.

Wießeckel: Just one more question: You mentioned the good
things about JavaScript JSLint. How can JSLint help me be a better

Crockford: JSLint is smarter than I am at JavaScript and it is
probably smarter than you, too. So as painful as it is: Follow its
advice. It is trying to help you.

Wießeckel: Mr. Crockford, thank you very much.

comments powered by Disqus